Tuesday, March 6, 2012

Guns on Campus Bill -- AZ -- SB 1474 -- Not Dead Yet?

Though we thought it was dead, rumors are now circulating that SB 1474, the Guns on Campus Bill in Arizona, may be rearing its ugly head once more.

The recent speculation about the bill coming back up is due to a lot of interest taken by the National Rifle Association (NRA) who has recently started pouring a lot of resources into getting this bill passed.

As the lead proponent of the right to bare arms, it seems that the NRA has no limits as to where and when they think it's appropriate to have a gun. I'm sure that if it was up to them, citizens would be able to bring guns anywhere they want and get guns pretty much anywhere they want without any major restrictions.

I'm honestly not opposed to the right to bare arms, though I often question the "need" some people feel to own them. I could see how it would be important in case the government ever somehow got infected with some kind of malicious virus that made them evil and wanted to turn America into a tyrannical dystopia, or more practically speaking, if you lived in a really crappy neighborhood (though then I would question why you stay or why you think that a gun is more necessary than like a baseball bat that would be less lethal?).

Anyway, obviously I'm not terribly supportive of people's personal decisions to get guns, though I am supportive of the right to own them.

But despite my support of the 2nd amendment, I think that there are some places where it is just inappropriate. One of those places would be bars. You should, by law, have to leave your gun at the very least in your vehicle when you go to places that serve alcohol. Guns and alcohol DO NOT MIX, EVER! I don't care how trained someone is or what they think qualifies them to drink and have a gun handy, it does not make a situation safe ever!

And of course, another place where guns are inappropriate are schools. I know at ASU we already have a police department ON CAMPUS. We have armed officers who patrol our campus and make sure we are safe. We do not need to carry our own guns to keep ourselves safe. This bill won't make campuses any safe, all it will do is give people more lethal ways of solving fights, arguments, and other disputes, especially for those people who can't control their temper.

I mean, I'm not afraid of the military-trained, college undergrad who is there to study and take his schooling seriously; I'm afraid of that one guy that won't back down from a fight, regularly scruffs it up with people because he can't control his anger, and might pull that gun out if he feels like he's being disrespected. Those kind of people don't just exist in the ghetto; they are on college campuses, too, unfortunately.

And I'm sure that as well as increasing violence on campus, it will increase armed robbery as well.

Dr. Crow said that he didn't support the bill, I don't support the bill, most people I know don't support the bill, and anyone who thinks this is a good idea probably hasn't taken the time to think about this question seriously.



  1. What a joke. Guess what, those "kind of people" that don't exist just in the ghetto, they will carry a gun on campus REGARDLESS of a law. It is the law-ABIDING folks like myself that would like to stand a chance if someone decides to go off on others with their firearm. AND I'd like to be able to carry legally. You people that think the crazies won't break the law to carry their gun on campus are crazy yourselves.

    And by the way, people who will go into a bar with a concealed gun and do so while intending to drink are breaking the law. You are not allowed to drink in a bar with a gun - you need to read the law and stop trying to use cliche arguments that have NEVER been made. You will NEVER get anyone, including the NRA, to argue that someone should be able to drink and carry at the same time in a bar. And I guarantee you have NEVER heard someone make that argument (except maybe a liberal plant trying to shutdown the pro-gun movement by making rational people sound like they are for something that they are simply NOT!)

  2. Thank you for your comment. It is greatly appreciated.

    But if I could, I would like to take a moment to point a few things out.

    The first thing I want to address is that I do respect people's 2nd amendment right to carry a weapon. However, I believe that there are some places that this is inappropriate. I was using bars as an example of one place where it is not appropriate for their to be guns. And while you say that the NRA wouldn't back a law that allowed people to drink while carrying a gun, this may be true; I don't know. But the fact is, that they DID back a bill that allows gun owners to bring guns into a place serving alcohol, and I highly doubt that those people are going there just to hang out.


    Now, I know there are a lot of respectable gun owners who abide by the law and carry guns only for personal protection. And although I don't personally see the reason why someone would feel the need to carry a gun on them, I can respect their right to do so. However, I do feel like schools are not the place, especially since the highest crime on campus is property theft. Not to mention that bill does not require schools to provide gun lockers, and students aren't actually allowed to bring guns into buildings, which means that if something happened on campus, they most likely wouldn't be able to protect their selves anyway, especially in Arizona where people try not to spend too much time outside.

    Now I'm not saying that banning guns from campus is going to keep everyone from bringing them on campus, and I'm not saying that there aren't responsible gun owners. What I am saying is that there is a small percentage of people who would bring a gun on campus and use it irresponsibly if they were to get in an altercation with someone or a heated argument. I feel like allowing guns on campus would just increase the risk of deadly violence on campus and would do very little to help protect anyone.

    And if anything, I would say that a law like this one would be completely irresponsible without first re-examining the process required for getting a gun. Arizona has a very simple gun registration process that requires 1 class, shooting 1 bullet out of your gun, and a relatively small fee. I feel like there should be stricter requirement for getting a gun such as a mandatory anger management class (to help reduce the risk of people with anger control problems getting their hands on guns without having a chance to address their anger problems) and at least a week's worth of firearm safety classes.

    Not everyone needs classes on how to use guns responsibly, but for those who do, I wouldn't want them to be without it.

  3. I have no problem with people arming themselves. I just applied for a CCW permit in AZ. I was disappointed with class I took. Over the last few years it has been watered down. People are not going over the laws and situations that can arise. Are students going to get the training to carry a gun responsible? I don't think so. The Zimmerman case is a perfect example of someone who appears not to have had
    much training.

  4. I would agree with you Ken that the process for getting a gun needs to definitely be more stringent. It seems to me that it's easier to own a gun in AZ than it is to get a driver's license, and that is concerning to me.

    I think there should also be a mandatory anger management session (the exact number of classes I would say is appropriate is still yet to be determined) complete with some kind of evaluation as well. I should think that would weed out the majority of the psychopaths and still allow decent people to own weapons without unnecessarily imposing on their rights.

    1. I have my Arizona CCW took my class in mesa, although i felt the class was pointless (active duty USMC) you do fire more than a single round out of the weapon, the grading method used and distance fired from to me is pointless in all reality is indeed the max distance 99.8% of civilians would fire from, giving it a real world distance for self protection. they cover more laws than anything and as you were saying about having a gun in a bar YES you can BUT there are restrictions, such as IF you have as much as a single drink you are in the wrong and risk jail, losing your CCW and your gun(s). Posted on the door of many places are sitckers saying that firearms are PROHIBITED CCW holders must abide by the posting or again are breaking the law. You also speak of the people who are less than normal in the head, well sorry to say it but after my deployment i came to terms with the fact that law or no law if they want to kill, maim, or cause terror they are going to the process for getting a gun in the state is pointless why would we make it harder for the good guys to arm themselves to protect you, your family and themselves? I mean if im in a mall or on ASU main and theres an active shooter im not going to just sit there (or worse run from it) because there are other people who dont have the guts to carry a gun to self protect. I would go out of my way to not only protect myself, but your mother, father, brother, sister, bestfriend, and what not. The guy your worried about going to Scottsdale Gun Club and buying a pistol ISNT GOING THERE he already carries one that he bought from his dope dealer. causing the few who are willing to carry a gun knowing it may mean taking someones life and living with that knowing that they killed to protect you and others like yourself who are unwilling to stand up for them selves is a ballsy thing to do and very honorable in my mind. Dont make it hard for me to protect you and myself cause the "crazies" are already "packin" we need to be ready for when they think that they have been judged for the last time. You recall a man running from the police, he ran into chandler mall armed and had already shot at the police? ONE armed citizen inside the store he held hostage could have saved time, money, and fear. Next time you see me walk into a gas station, gun on my hip (open carry or not)dont think im going to rob the place and hold you hostage. instead you should walk up to me and thank me for protecting you because theres no cop in the corner of the AMPM on hardy and university mind you i may be on my way to protect those students in my next lecture hall OR on my way home from standing that "post". oh and lastly keep in mind that in the state of Arizona, it IS NOT required that you have a CCW to carry a gun in ANY manner you want on your body. CCW in the state actually do VERY LITTLE as far as giving you special "powers" small things like having a gun in a place that serves booze (but you cannot drink). Dont be scared of the guy that lets you see his gun or the guy who is lawfully armed. be worried about the guy whose worried someone will find out that he is armed.

    2. BTW sorry for my poor gramer, keep in mind im an active duty Marine

  5. Anonymous Marine, thank you so much for your post. Also, before I get into addressing what you had said on the topic specifically, thank you for serving our country and being a part of that necessary branch of government known as the military, fighting for our freedoms, and sacrificing so much of your own freedom to help protect ours. I have a lot of friends who are part of the military (two in the Army and one in the Marines I believe), and my only brother is serving in the Army as well. So it is something that I proudly thank brave men like you for doing, as it it something I could never see doing myself, while at the same time acknowledging how important military (even an inactive military in some cases) is to the essential protection of for countries and the freedoms upheld in those countries.

    Also, I wouldn't dream to judge you based on your grammar in a rational discussion such as this. And in so saying, I would hope that you have overlooked the number of mistakes I have undoubtedly made when writing this article. It is not whether or not you are able to write like a scholar, but rather whether or not you make rational and comprehensible arguments that are relevant to the discussion, which I would say you do a fair job of doing and I highly appreciate your input especially as someone who has been through military training and has probably been in a situation before where responsible gun use has been an issue. Though in the future, you should definitely try to make your responses into more paragraphs to make it easier to read.

    That being said, you are right to think that most people who are actually crazy already have a gun, and as you have suggested ought to be the case, I am typically not frightened at all by anyone who OPENLY carries a weapon and often times scoff at people who freak out by someone who wears a weapon on their side or front in plane sight for all to see, which to me indicates a very non-aggressive symbol of openness, rather than any kind of threatening intent.

    My main concern personally isn't actually about responsible gun owners or someone who is outright crazy. Rather, my main concern is actually something in between where someone who is normally a responsible gun owner, under stressful or aggravated circumstances would resort to using a gun where deadly violence could have been realistically avoided. That is to say, I think that there are a few hot-headed or compulsive-minded people who in a situation they weren't prepared to handle, especially where they feel threatened to some degree (excluded threat of death or severe injury excluded as those would be justifiable situations to use deadly force) would use weapons as a way to resolve heated situations.

  6. Even more so, if a man had a gun strapped to his chest and another man was perhaps intoxicated and decided to fist fight the man despite the rational fear a sober person might have for attacking someone who was armed, the armed man, though being sober and having gone through the required process for acquire his permit, may be tempted to pull out his gun and thereafter use it in fear that in a hand-to-hand fight the man that is drunk and challenging him might try to take the gun from his body and do the same; a situation which introduces a deadly weapon into a dispute that would have otherwise likely only ended in bruises or if nothing else less extreme outcomes.

    It is very difficult to describe all of the special circumstances which could arise within ordinary life in which a gun would introduce an unnecessary deadly force into a situation that might not have otherwise ended so badly.

    And so, people who have had weapons training, and in particular, members of the military or veterans who are not suffering any significant psychological disorders as a result are not primarily concern, and it is a considerable thought to propose the idea that people who have been formally trained to use a weapon ought to have an expedited process to which they can be allowed to legally carry those weapons; however, people who lack proper training, patients, anger management, risk management, and other skills related to responsible use of deadly weapons are still primarily a concern for me.

    I think that there ought to be a much more comprehensive ordeal that should be required to acquire a weapons permit, including classes which instruct future gun-holders on how to deal with anger and how to properly diffuse situations (especially in terms of both with and without a gun, in both cases in the sense of doing so responsibly). I don't at all think that this would be asking too much for people who wanted to legally carry and could be even beneficial to some of these people as individuals. More importantly, it is ensuring that like in the same way that the government gives examinations related to vehicle driver licensing to ensure adequate protection on the road, we can ensure that licensed gun owners are equipped with the skills they need to ensure that they themselves are not a menace to society as well as ensure that when a situation does arise that they can handle it.

    Finally, if we had strong gun training programs for those who wish to have a license to carry a gun, I would feel comfortable allowing licensed gun owners carry their guns with them just about anywhere they pleased. However, because of how lax the gun laws are, it is hard to justify such freedoms.

    Also, as a final, final note... wow.... I can't believe that A) there is a character cap on how long comments can be, and B) that I have exceeded it this time. hahaha.